Between Glory and Ashes 4: Refined, Not Consumed - Episode 156

Carey Griffel: Welcome to Genesis Marks the Spot where we raid the ivory tower of biblical theology without ransacking our faith. My name is Carey Griffel. Welcome back to our series on fire in Scripture. Now this is a series, but you don't necessarily have to listen to them in order or listen to the previous episodes to listen to this one, but of course they do build on each other and I will be calling back on some information that I've given before. But I don't think you're gonna be terribly lost if you just jump into one of these. I usually try to keep my series kind of like that, so that each episode could stand alone and be really helpful to people depending on what they're looking for and what they need.

[00:00:55] So just a reminder of what we've been doing. I've been tracing the theme of fire across Scripture, and I've been using frame semantics in order to do that. Now if you're not familiar with frame semantics, it's absolutely okay. It's not really that it's all that complicated.

[00:01:14] Really what we're looking at in frame semantics is that ideas exist in a kind of matrix. There's a whole conceptual matrix that backs a particular idea. And that conceptual matrix can shift and change. So when we're talking about fire, and that includes talking about glory and all kinds of other things like purification, then we really need to be careful on looking at Scripture as to what it's actually framing it as. Because sometimes we have it in the frame of judgment, sometimes we have it in the frame of protection. But I've talked a lot about that already, just kind of recapping that .

[00:02:00] So in this episode, we're gonna go ahead and take next step into those frames. The big idea that I've been suggesting to you is that God's holy fire is his jealous love, and that has a lot to do with his presence. And his presence will guard, guide, purify, empower, and expose, all depending on our posture and what God is calling us to do.

[00:02:31] So I've talked about fire as a boundary. Now we're gonna be talking about fire as indwelling and fire as a furnace that people can actually live in. You can be in the fire, but you are not consumed. Now, there's certainly prerequisites for that situation. This is why we have to be purified from uncleanliness so that we can get to that state.

[00:03:00] That kind of fire is made present directly and humanly in the incarnation. It is also vindicated in his resurrection, and God shares his Spirit with us in the church. This is signified and sealed in our baptism, and so I hope you can see why the frame of baptism should be much wider than a lot of people try to reduce it down into. Baptism is about purification. Baptism is also about guiding and it's about commission.

[00:03:37] So today we'll be talking about a few different frames. We'll be talking about the boundary frame, the guarding frame, the purification and furnace frame, the guide and presence frame, and we'll of course toss in the evaluation and judgment frame. And we can note that glory will overlap all of these things as well.

[00:04:03] We're also gonna be talking a little bit about hermeneutics. Hermeneutics, of course, is the methodology or the approach that we use when we look at Scripture and we interpret Scripture. I'll be talking about sensus plenior. Now, whether or not I pronounce that correctly, I don't know. I've heard it many times and I still am not sure I ever pronounce it correctly, so sorry if I didn't.

[00:04:30] But really this is a very important concept that we should understand. In the idea of sensus plenior, Scripture does not contradict earlier Scripture, but it fills out what was already there. This is where we get the incarnation. This is where we get the clarity of the resurrection. And the meaning of fire and presence is advanced immeasurably when we see Christ on Earth.

[00:05:02] Our ultimate payoff today is going to be to understand why the church can live near the consuming fire like we see in Hebrews 12 and why baptism belongs inside the fire and glory framework.

[00:05:19] Now, if you've listened to last week's episode, I talked about the incident at Mount Carmel where we have a courtroom, not really a contest in the way that we might think of it, but it's a courtroom judgment. We talked about the ethics of power, and we've talked about how zeal needs to be restrained and contained in the will and purposes of God. So that's going to carry over today in that the same consuming fire now is going to move inside the people of God, purifying, guiding, and evaluating so that we can live inside that fire without being consumed.

[00:06:06] As far as our hermeneutic corner today, where we're gonna be talking about sensus plenior where later Scripture is going to fill out what earlier Scripture already has laid the foundations for. So we have Torah and that guides nearness to God. We have the ideas of boundary, the ideas of authorized fire. We see that very heavily in Leviticus and in Exodus. But really it's all throughout the Torah.

[00:06:37] Today we're gonna move into the books of Isaiah and Daniel, and that really intensifies the conversation for purification, for God's guidance and his judgment. This should not surprise us because this is the context of the exile.

[00:06:55] So then when we get to the New Testament, we have, of course, the incarnation of God himself, where God is bringing his fiery presence near without annihilating those he's around. And of course we have the resurrection and the ascension, which enthrones the Son. And we should see that in the context of God's court. So that has callbacks to the book of Isaiah and all throughout the prophets.

[00:07:26] And of course we get to Pentecost where that fire is distributed. The very presence of God given to the church in a way that it was not before, at least not to the point, and the degree that we have it there. And all of that matters because what we are doing today is living into God's truth within the church.

[00:07:51] And in the New Testament, we see how trials function as a refining furnace. They're not signs of abandonment by God. In Christ, the judgment of God doesn't go away. It isn't erased, but it shows up as a fire that reveals and refines just as it does in the past in the Old Testament. There's really nothing fundamentally different except for the fact that the scope has changed, and we can say that the location of the Spirit has changed in the way that we have the promise of the Spirit that indwells the church.

[00:08:35] Now, I don't actually think that means that there was no indwelling of the Spirit ever in the past. I actually think that goes too far. I think there's a lot of suggestion in the Old Testament where there is potentially that same kind of idea.

[00:08:53] But of course with the church, we do have a change. We have the visible Christ on Earth as our representative, as our example, as our very head. And so I'm not saying there's no distinctive difference, but I'll probably have to leave most of that conversation later when we talk more about the Spirit.

[00:09:16] But like I suggested last week in the episode about Mount Carmel and the other stories in that section of Scripture, I think that really our posture matters in the Old Testament, just like the New Testament. Repentance and humility is the approach and the posture we should have.

[00:09:37] Okay, so we have a few different passages we're gonna get into today, but I want to give a few brief reminders from the Torah about how God establishes his boundaries. We see that in Genesis. We see that in Exodus. We see it in Leviticus, so on and so forth. But God never abandons his people. God always returns to have that relationship with us, sometimes in a slightly different form because of our different circumstances. So basically I just want you to be aware and thinking about the idea of guarded nearness with God, and it's practiced in the realm of trust and guidance.

[00:10:24] So let's jump over to the passage in Isaiah six. This is a very clear divine council scene. Very clear theme of glory. We have the seraphim, the burning ones. We have smoke, we have holiness. We have a furnace for the messenger where coal is going to be touched to the lips, which is going to be a purifying agent. There's also a commission.

[00:10:55] The scene in Isaiah six ought to be ringing a lot of bells for us in the New Testament when we get to Acts two, where the people have tongues as of fire, and indeed their speech is affected by that. Right?

[00:11:12] Let's go ahead and read Isaiah six, one through eight. I'm going to read the Lexham English Bible. It says, quote, " In the year of the death of Uzziah the King, I saw the Lord sitting on a high and raised throne, and the hem of his robe was filling the temple. Seraphs were standing above him. Each had six wings. With two he covered his face, and with two he covered his feet. And with two he flew. And the one called to the other and said, holy, holy, holy is Yahweh of hosts. The whole earth is full of his glory. And the pivots of the thresholds shook from the sound of those who called and the house was filled with smoke.

[00:11:58] " And I said, woe to me. For I am destroyed. For I am a man of unclean lips and I am living among a people of unclean lips. For my eyes have seen the king, Yahweh of hosts. Then one of the seraphs flew to me and in his hand was hot coal he had taken from the altar with tongs and he touched my mouth and he said, look, this has touched your lips and has removed your guilt and your sin is annulled.

[00:12:30] " Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, whom shall I send and who will go for us? And I said, I am here, send me." End quote.

[00:12:42] Okay, so notice that he believes that he is going to be destroyed. Because of his uncleanness. But rather than the person entirely being destroyed, it is the uncleanness that is dealt with and purification is applied.

[00:13:01] This section of Scripture starts out with the death of Uzziah the King, and then it focuses right into Yahweh as king. When we talk about the gospel according to what people like Matthew Bates have taught us , understanding the gospel as a message of the kingship of Jesus, that is really essential. But the context of the kingship of Yahweh is all over the Old Testament. It's not an either or, but the New Testament is calling back and bringing up all of that imagery every time the people are preaching about the gospel. The gospel of King Jesus is the gospel of God. It's the gospel of Yahweh.

[00:13:49] Okay, so we have this scene in Isaiah six. Of course, there is a throne with throne guardians, and the idea of the seraphim literally means burning ones. The image is connected to fiery serpents. When you think of fiery serpents, we're probably talking about cobras and snakes that spit fire in poison. It's kind of a fiery thing. Remember, fire doesn't always have to be fire. It's an idea that encompasses a lot of things.

[00:14:26] So what are the frames that we have that are being called up here? Well, clearly we have glory and holiness. We also have boundary and guarding. We have the covering and the smoke. For instance, the seraphim cover themselves with their wings. And we also have the divine commissioning.

[00:14:48] Isaiah actually confesses that he is undone. He is a man of unclean lips. Of course this is God's prophet. So if God's prophet can't have clean lips, then who would? The answer is nobody would. Everybody needs that purification. But if you have a right posture towards God, that purification is not gonna destroy you, it will destroy your uncleanness.

[00:15:17] We might also make a claim here that holiness first exposes speech, and that kind of makes sense because Isaiah has a vocation of the prophet, and a prophet is meant to speak. A prophet mediates the divine presence through his words. So one of the seraphim takes a live coal from the altar, touches Isaiah's lips and says something about atonement. This is the language of purification.

[00:15:48] Yes, we have guilt associated with this, don't we? And that makes sense because remember within the umbrella of holiness, we have a whole wide variety of things. One of those is that we do need to be purified from our sins.

[00:16:07] It feels quite easy to skip over the end here where there is a commission. Here in the divine court scene, he's getting a particular one, I guess we might say. And again, notice the posture. Here I am, send me. This happens after the cleansed lips. And so purification is what precedes the commissioning.

[00:16:32] Now, as I said, I think that this scene bridges over into Acts two and the church. At Pentecost tongues of fire rest on each of the people. And while it does not say that their speech is purified, that's probably underlying the context with the fire. Certainly the people's speech is empowered. So I think we should see a continuity between what's going on with Isaiah and what's going on with the church. But of course it scales up into the corporate body of Christ.

[00:17:11] I know there's a whole lot more we could unpack with Isaiah six, but we're gonna try and keep with the theme of fire. So notice the pattern. We have confession. We have the application of the coal with purification. We have the commission. Now we're gonna go back into Isaiah four and let's look at this passage.

[00:17:32] Isaiah four is a kind of in-house purification of Zion. It's a furnace for the whole people of God. Yahweh's breath is associated with the fire in Isaiah 30 we'll talk about that as well. And we'll also talk about Isaiah 63 as a kind of rereading of the Exodus.

[00:17:56] So we've already tied fire with purification and guidance. But let's look at Isaiah four. I'm gonna read the whole chapter because it's pretty short and it's all pretty applicable to what we're looking at here.

[00:18:11] Isaiah four says, quote, " And seven women shall grasp at one man on that day saying, we will eat our own bread and we will wear our own clothing. Only let us be called by your name. Take away our disgrace!

[00:18:28] " On that day, the branch of Yahweh shall become beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the land shall become the pride and glory of the survivors of Israel. And this shall happen. He who is left in Zion, and he who remains in Jerusalem, will be called holy, everyone written for life in Jerusalem, when the Lord has washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion and cleansed the blood of Jerusalem from her midst by a spirit of judgment and by a spirit of burning.

[00:19:02] " Then Yahweh will create over all of the site of Mount Zion and over her assembly a cloud by day, and smoke and the brightness of flaming fire by night. Indeed, over all the glory, there will be a canopy and it will be a shelter for shade from the heat by day, and a refuge and a hiding place from rainstorm and from rain." End quote.

[00:19:28] Okay, so at the beginning of Isaiah four, we have to call back to our minds the idea that the exile happens because the people of God betrayed God himself. And that is seen within the metaphor of adultery. There's judgment upon the people because of that betrayal.

[00:19:50] And this passage in verse one is often seen as an eschatological one, where the seven women shall hold onto one man. They wanna be called by that one man's name to take away their disgrace. This is a salvation concept, right? And salvation is often seen as eschatological and we're going to heaven when we die, and all of that, but it's a bigger picture here, okay.

[00:20:19] So the picture we have is one of living in the land in a plentiful way, in a fruitful way. We have the branch of Yahweh; of course that is a Messianic title. But keeping in mind the people who were initially reading Isaiah may not have been thinking in terms of precisely the Messiah, the branch of Yahweh is also the remnant of the people. That doesn't contradict that this is a Messianic passage here because Jesus himself is the perfect representative of Israel. So it's a both/ and kind of a thing here.

[00:21:01] So notice in verse four, the context of the Lord washing away the filth of the daughters of Zion, cleansing the blood of Jerusalem by a spirit of judgment, by a spirit of burning. Judgment and burning are parallels, and we should be seeing both the frames of judgment as well as the frames of purification. Those are kind of one in the same here.

[00:21:28] For those who do not have the right posture, who are not repentant, who are not approaching God in the right way, they are the ones who are going to be burned up. It's their blood that this is talking about. But those who remain will be called holy. Everyone written for life in Jerusalem.

[00:21:49] Verse five, brings out very strong Exodus language with the cloud by day, the smoke, the fire by night, and this is meant to be a refuge and a hiding place.

[00:22:02] Now, certainly they're thinking about the land, the promised land here, but we know that by the time of the New Testament, it doesn't have to be restricted to that because the people of God is a global people. This is why we have a commissioning at Pentecost. The people are now commissioned to go out, go back to their homes. Spread the gospel and spread the kingdom of God.

[00:22:31] Okay, now we're gonna jump over to Isaiah 30. The context here is the Assyrian threat. The name of Yahweh comes from afar. His breath is like an overflowing stream, reaching to the neck. His breath is like a stream of burning sulfur, kindling tophet. Tophet is a judgment site prepared by God. So we have word and name and breath . And all of that has to do with divine presence and power.

[00:23:05] So the frames we have here are judgment and evaluation. The number one frame is judgment, but we also have the glory and majesty frame as well as the guiding frame. It is God who is going to set the stage and prepare the action.

[00:23:25] Okay, let's go ahead and read Isaiah 30 27 through 33, which says, quote, " Look, the name of Yahweh comes from afar, burning with his anger and heaviness of cloud. His lips are full of indignation and his tongue is like a devouring fire, and his breath is like an overflowing river. It reaches up to the neck to shake the nations with the seive of worthlessness and a bridle that leads astray is on the jawbones of the peoples.

[00:23:58] " You shall have a song as in the night when a holy festival is kept and a gladness of heart, like one who goes with the flute to go to the mountain of Yahweh, to the rock of Israel. And Yahweh will cause the majesty of his voice to be heard, and he will cause the descent of his arm to be seen. In furious anger and a flame of devouring fire with a cloud burst and a rainstorm and stones of hail.

[00:24:26] " Indeed, Assyria will be shattered by the voice of Yahweh. He strikes with the rod and every stroke of the staff a foundation that Yahweh lays will be on it with timbrels and lyres, and he will fight against it with battles of brandishing. For tophet has been prepared from yesterday. Indeed, it is made ready for the king. He makes its pile of wood deep and wide. He makes fire and wood abundant. The breath of Yahweh burns in it like a stream of sulfur." End quote.

[00:25:03] Okay, so obviously this is very heavy on the judgment, but I just want to point out a few of these things in this passage that are really very interconnected to that judgment. The name of Yahweh comes from afar. Burning with his anger, heaviness of cloud. We've talked about glory and the word heavy and how those are very interrelated. Something that is heavy is really important. It's meaningful and it's glorious. The cloud is the idea of covering something.

[00:25:40] God is described as having lips and a tongue of devouring fire, and he has a breath, and it is the breath that is going to overwhelm people. Breath of course, is very connected to the idea of spirit as well. Oftentimes, we will have translation differences in whether or not we should translate something spirit or wind or breath or something like that, right? These are very interrelated ideas.

[00:26:11] We have songs, Yahweh's voice, Yahweh's majesty, the descent of his arm. That's like battle imagery. It's the divine warrior. God comes in furious anger and flame of devouring fire. Now, who is he actually devouring here? I mean, it tells us straight out. God's target is Assyria. So even though Assyria was a tool that God used in order to judge Israel during the exile, Assyria in turn will also be judged.

[00:26:48] All right, now we're gonna jump into Isaiah 63. Isaiah 63 seems to be a hymn of remembrance. We're gonna have the context of the Holy Spirit, which again, I promise we'll talk a lot more about Spirit especially the Holy Spirit, especially in the Old Testament in the future. But for now, we'll set aside that, and I will say that when I read his Holy Spirit, another translation might also be the spirit of His holiness. The way you translate that is going to depend on a few different things, right? But either way, we have the concept of holiness, the concept of spirit that is very deeply embedded in this passage.

[00:27:38] This is recalling the angel of God's presence, God's glorious arm, and his Holy Spirit. Those are all three different ways of naming a single kind of presence, namely the presence of the divine.

[00:27:55] So in the Exodus, we have the fiery pillar and the cloudy pillar that guides the people, right? Isaiah's explicitly tying that to the spirit.

[00:28:06] Okay, so the frames that we have here are guidance and presence, glory in the form of reputation , and the purifying furnace.

[00:28:18] Let's go ahead and read to Isaiah 63, 11 through 14. Quote, " Then his people remembered the days of old of Moses. Where is the one who led them up from the sea with the shepherds of his flock? Where is the one who puts his Holy Spirit inside him, who made his magnificent arm move at the right hand of Moses, who divided the waters before them to make an everlasting name for himself? Who led them through the depths. They did not stumble like a horse in the desert, like cattle in the valley that goes down the spirit of Yahweh gave him rest, so you lead your people to make a magnificent name for yourself." End quote.

[00:29:04] Okay, so let's wrap up this section in Isaiah. In Isaiah four, the spirit's fire makes people fit for his presence. Isaiah 30 shows us that there is some timing related to that. God's breath kindles judgment.

[00:29:23] And this matters because in actuality, even though the people were put into exile, they were taken away from the land. It wasn't the people themselves who were going to choose when judgment came upon their prosecutors. In Jeremiah 29, it explicitly tells the people to seek the prosperity of the cities where God has deported them.

[00:29:49] Isaiah 63 shows us the same spirit that leads God's people just like the pillar once did. So within this fire, that could be judgment. It can also be a place where people can still live, where people can still thrive.

[00:30:07] When we think of the Spirit leading us in our lives, we probably have some particular ideas about what that looks like, how we understand that the Spirit is leading us, how it might feel. And it tends to be that kind of inner voice, maybe for some of us, right? Or an inner feeling or thoughts or ideas or things like that.

[00:30:31] It might be that Spirit leading can happen in many different ways. Not just an internal impulse or an internal thought. I mean, honestly for myself, I believe that God speaks to me through other people around me all the time. If I have some sort of a problem or I'm really not sure what path to take, then I will do my best to pray, to try and get some internal guidance to try and come up with my own ideas and plans.

[00:31:03] But I also try to wait on what God is speaking to me through other people, because quite often somebody else is going to give me the idea that I didn't even have myself.

[00:31:16] And it's hard sometimes because I want to just have the idea inside of me. I just want God to deposit that thought in my own head. And sometimes I have to wait and see where God is leading according to either what's happening around me or the outcome of something I'm attempting, or even just wait for somebody to come along who will say the right thing at the right time to me, and that will turn on the lights. And I'll say, oh, right, that's what I should try. Let's do that.

[00:31:54] And I just, I cannot tell you how many times it's happened to me, where I have been at a loss or I've been trying to do something and it feels like I'm really beating my head against the wall, somebody will come along and give me the key to that.

[00:32:11] And I don't think it's just coincidence. I don't think it's just that person. I think that is often the way that God speaks. And he does that within a particular sequence of events . And sometimes I have to wait and be patient for that. And it can be hard. And sometimes those situations are what purify us to get to that point of being able to hear those things, being ready to take that step. And I don't think that even necessarily means that there is a particular thing that God would necessarily have us do. Because I think a lot of times there are multiple paths that we could go down and maybe sometimes God is waiting for our choices and our posture of trust to pursue something.

[00:33:04] You know, like if we're waiting for that really solid assurance that I know God is saying that I should do this, then I go and do it and it doesn't work out, and then I'm like, well, I thought you wanted me to do this, God, it's not working. Why not? God is telling me, well, that's because that just wasn't the right thing and you shouldn't have been quite so certain on that internal voice.

[00:33:32] That can be a hard thing because I really do believe that as a believer, we all have the Spirit of God. We all have that internal direction at times, but sometimes that's not how things work. And if we put all of our eggs in that basket of, I am certain that God said this to me, well, honestly, a lot of times for me, I put all of my eggs into that basket because I wanted that to be true.

[00:34:02] I wanted that to be the path because I thought for sure that I knew exactly what God was up to. And yeah, apparently I was wrong. That doesn't mean God's not up to things though. So you continue to be patient. You continue to listen. You continue to wait on God's providence and God's timing. Sometimes that means you do have to learn hard things, which is not fun. It is not fun at all, but it does bless us. God's purification does always bless us.

[00:34:37] So if the people of the Old Testament could be in a relationship with God, where they are having the right posture, they're worshiping God, they're approaching God in repentance, they're trying to do their best to repair the faults that they create amongst themselves. You know, all of these things that we see that are actively done within the sacrificial system, even when they don't have the sacrificial system, they can still work to create justice. They can still work to amend the problems that they create and to approach God with the right heart and the right attitude.

[00:35:21] And this is what we see in the book of Daniel, certainly. There's a lot we could look at in the book of Daniel.

[00:35:28] Let's go ahead and read Daniel 3 16 27, quote, " Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednigo answered and said to the king, Nebuchadnezzar, We have no need on this matter to present a defense to you. If it is so our God whom we serve is able to rescue us from the furnace of blazing fire. And from your hand, O King, let him rescue us. And if not, let it be known to you O King that we will not serve your gods and the statue of gold that you have set up, we will not worship.

[00:36:04] " Then Nebuchadnezzar was filled with anger and the image of his face was changed towards Shadrach, Meshach and Abednigo. So he ordered and said to heat up the furnace seven times what was usual to heat it up. And he commanded the strongest men of the guards who were in his army to bind Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednigo, and to throw them into the furnace of blazing fire.

[00:36:30] " Then these men were bound with their garments, their trousers, and their turbans and their other clothing, and they were thrown into the midst of the furnace of blazing fire. Therefore, because the word of the king was severe and the furnace was exceedingly hot, the flame of the fire killed these men who lifted up Shadrach, Meshach and Abednigo. But these men, the three of them, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednigo fell down into the midst of the furnace of blazing fire and they were bound.

[00:37:02] " Then Nebuchadnezzar, the king, was astonished and he rose up in haste and he asked, saying to his advisors, did we not throw three men bound into the midst of the fire? They answered saying to the king, certainly O King. He answered saying, look, I see four men unbound walking in the midst of the fire, and there is no damage to them. The appearance of the fourth man resembles the son of a God.

[00:37:32] " Then Nebuchadnezzar approached the door of the furnace of blazing fire and he called out saying, Shadrach, Meshach and Abednigo, servants of the Most High God, come out and come here. So then Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednigo came out from the middle of the fire and the satraps, the prefects, the governors and the advisors of the king were assembling and they saw these men that the fire had no power over their bodies and the hair of their heads was not singed, and their garments were not harmed, and the smell of fire did not come from them." End quote.

[00:38:10] Okay. So I think this is fairly straightforward. The fourth, like a son of the gods. That's clearly meant to be a theophany, a manifestation of God himself, and that is within the fire. And the three men are not burned because they have the right attitude and the right presence in order to withstand that.

[00:38:35] The frames we have here are purification and furnace, which is not destructive fire for the faithful. We have guarding and boundary, protecting in flames. We also have witness and commission. This is clearly a public testimony. Nebuchadnezzer himself called God the Most High God. And it was after he used that appellation that he asked the three men to come back out.

[00:39:05] Okay, so now let's look at Daniel seven. The Ancient of Days is seated in the divine throne room again. We have thrones, wheels of flame, river of fire, thousands upon thousands. We have a council scene where books are opened. Beasts, which are a type of imperial power. Those are judged. Dominion is transferred to the one like a son of man coming with the clouds. Again, clearly this is a reference to the second person of the Trinity. It is a theophany. It is a manifestation of the future Messiah.

[00:39:46] The frames that we have here are judgment, glory and weightiness, council and courtroom.

[00:39:55] Of course, we have Jesus who self-identifies as the son of man with the authority to forgive and judge. In Mark 1462, Jesus said, quote, "I am and you'll see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the power and coming with the clouds of heaven." End quote.

[00:40:17] I mean, really? How much more clear can you get here?

[00:40:21] I actually think the term Son of Man has a broader application than just Daniel seven, as I've talked about before, but it's clearly talking about Daniel seven in this imagery here in Mark 14. In Act seven, we have Steven talking and he gives the same kinds of ideas. He sees the heavens opened and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.

[00:40:46] Well, let's go ahead and read Daniel seven, nine through 14. Quote, " I continued watching until thrones were placed and an Ancient of Days sat. His clothing was like white snow, and the hair of his head was like pure wool, and his throne was a flame of fire and its wheels were burning fire. A stream of fire issued forth and flowed from his presence. Thousands upon thousands served him and 10,000 upon 10,000 stood before him. The judge sat and the books were opened.

[00:41:21] "I continued watching then because of the noise of the boastful words of the horn who was speaking. I continued watching until the beast was slain and its body was destroyed and it was given over to burning with fire. And as for the remainder of the beasts, their dominion was taken away. But a prolongation of their life was given to them for a season and a time.

[00:41:45] " I continued watching in the visions of the night and look with the clouds of heaven, one like a Son of Man was coming and he came to the Ancient of Days and was presented before him. And to him was given dominion and glory and kingship that all the peoples, the nations, and languages would serve him. His dominion is a dominion without end that will not cease, and his kingdom is one that will not be destroyed." End quote.

[00:42:16] All right, so clearly we have the context of fire, presence, and it is the one like a son of man who is given dominion, glory, and kingship. All of those are wrapped up in the concept of holiness and divine presence and all of these things, right?

[00:42:36] Now let's jump over to Daniel 12. I'm going to read Daniel 12, two through three and verse 10, quote, " And many from those sleeping in the dusty ground will awake some to everlasting life and some to disgrace and everlasting contempt. But the ones having insight will shine like the brightness of the expanse and the ones providing justice for the many will be like the stars forever and ever.

[00:43:06] " Many will be purified and will be cleansed and will be refined, but the wicked will act wickedly and none of the wicked will understand. But those who have insight will understand." End quote.

[00:43:21] So this context of shining, brightness, stars, this is divine council language, it's divine being language, and yet it's assigned and attached to people who have died who will then come awake, right? This is the language of resurrection and frankly, we do not have the concept of bodily resurrection very often in the Hebrew Bible, the Old Testament, and I have made the argument already that that is because these ideas progress. It's not a matter of people inventing things or people borrowing ideas. Again, it's not a change in what we've had before. It is an advancement of the idea.

[00:44:12] So I would not put the concept of resurrection in a bodily sense within the Torah in its original context. I don't think it's there. I don't think people were thinking of it. I think people were thinking of restoration and life in the Torah in a way that reflects resurrection, but it doesn't have to be the same as resurrection.

[00:44:37] That is why we have the concept of sensus plenior. The idea that the seeds are planted, but previous writers had no idea of the progression of revelation and what they would know in the future when God told them more, when they had more experience with God, when they got into a new context and then had to understand something different. And not "different" as in actually different, but different just because they're in a different context.

[00:45:10] They are thinking differently. They're exposed to new ideas, they're having their own new ideas. It's just like how what you think today is not the same as what you thought 10 years ago. But it also doesn't have to be necessarily different. It's just an advancement. You've thought more, you've lived more, you understand more.

[00:45:36] And so the idea of resurrection, the idea of eternal life, the idea of shining and brightness and stars are also connected in Daniel 12 with purification and being refined by the fire.

[00:45:52] So the frames that we have here are furnace and glory. These are transformative. We also have judgment. There are two outcomes you might come away with. For the wicked, you're going to be burned up. For the righteous and those with a good posture towards God with repentance, they are going to end up in a better state than they were before.

[00:46:18] Matthew 1343 says, quote " That the righteous will shine like the son in the kingdom of their Father. The one who has ears let him hear." End quote.

[00:46:30] I won't take the time to read first Corinthians 15, but resurrection, glory and transformation is all over that chapter.

[00:46:40] Philippians three 20 through 21 says, quote, " For our commonwealth exists in heaven, from which also we eagerly await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our humble body to be conformed to his glorious body in accordance with the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself." End quote.

[00:47:06] Our commonwealth existing in heaven is not about how we're going to heaven when we die. Our commonwealth is Jesus, who at the time was in heaven. It is Jesus who's going to transform our body and conform us to his body.

[00:47:26] So let's zoom back out in the book of Daniel. We have Daniel three, Daniel seven, and Daniel 12, which all speak to the themes of presence, the themes of purification and authority and commissioning and witness, and where purifying leads to resurrection, radiance, and hope for the afterlife.

[00:47:53] So all of that is already in the Old Testament. But in the New Testament, we have the incarnation. We have the Son of Man, God with us, who brings the throne fire near without consuming us. We can look in John one, we can look in the transfiguration. We can really look all over the gospels, and of course beyond the books of the gospel.

[00:48:19] Acts 2 33 through 36 says, quote, " therefore, having been exalted to the right hand of God and having received the promise of the Holy Spirit from the Father, he has poured out this that you see and hear. For David did not ascend into heaven, but he himself said, the Lord said to my Lord, sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet. Therefore, let all the House of Israel know beyond a doubt that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified!" End quote.

[00:49:00] We could read so many places in the book of Hebrews. I won't read the whole chapter of Hebrews one, but I just want to point out a few phrases there.

[00:49:10] God has spoken in the past, but in the later days, he has spoken through his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things and through whom he also made the world, who is the radiance of his glory, the representation of his essence. He made purification for sins through him. He sits down at the right hand of the Majesty on High having become better than angels, inheriting a more excellent name than even them.

[00:49:41] About the angels, he says, the one who makes his angels, winds, and his servants a flame of fire.

[00:49:48] It says the Lord laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning. The heavens are the works of your hands. They will perish, but you continue, they will all become old like a garment and like a robe you will roll them up and like a garment, they will be changed.

[00:50:06] All of this is coming straight out from the Old Testament and it's being applied to Jesus and showing how Jesus is the fulfillment of this and an even better thing than what we've had before.

[00:50:19] And again, it's not that judgment is being done away with. A final evaluation is going to remain. But for those who are in Christ, it is purifying and revealing and not annihilating.

[00:50:35] One Corinthians three, 13 through 15 says, quote, " The work of each one will become evident, for the day will reveal it because it will be revealed with fire. And the fire itself will test the work of each one of what sort it is. If anyone's work that he has built upon it remains, he will receive a reward. If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, but so as through fire." End quote.

[00:51:08] Okay, so I'm only gonna take a little bit of time here at the end to run this directly into the New Testament. Again, we have the idea and the concept of sensus plenior. None of what we read in the New Testament is going to contradict anything in the Old Testament. But understanding the Old Testament, first and foremost in its own context, is going to allow us to understand and frame the New Testament and what we have going on there. The incarnation of the Son of Man is obviously Jesus. Glory tabernacles among us, as we see in John one.

[00:51:48] God is bringing the fire near without annihilating the faithful. Being in Christ is the safe nearness to God. And being in Christ obviously puts us in the frame of his resurrection and ascension. We are the body of Christ, which means more than just, we're going to be okay in the end, and we're going to live an eternal life with God, but we are under the authority of God. Our zeal, again, should be restrained. We should not weaponize or abuse what we have. It requires purifying. Even for us, approaching God requires purification.

[00:52:35] And all of that is wrapped up in the way that we approach God in repentance. And all of that is going to end up with us being commissioned here on earth with actual things to do.

[00:52:49] And having that indwelt Spirit is going to enable us to do things that we wouldn't otherwise. Again, does that mean that we always are going to have the Spirit in us to the point where every thought we have and every feeling that we have is what God wants for us? Certainly not. I think that if you've lived very long at all, then that idea is dismantled pretty quickly.

[00:53:18] But it is our heart orientation towards God and repenting because the kingdom is at hand. That is what is going to put us in a place where we are able to be in Christ. Because if you're not drawing near to him, then how are you going to be in him?

[00:53:36] There's a certain set of things that happen, right? I mean, not in the sense of an order of operations, and we shouldn't get too overly technical here, but there is a procedure, right?

[00:53:50] We wish to draw near. We require purification in order to draw near safely. That purification will burn away the things that are not good in us, whatever that may be. And once we are purified, then we are able to withstand God's holy presence because of that change in us. That doesn't mean we're perfect.

[00:54:14] This isn't, again, magical technique. If it was magical technique, then once we were purified and once we were baptized, then wow, look at that, now we get the output of never sinning again. But it's not magic. It's a process that happens in relationship to God. And that is the beauty of the incarnation. That is the beauty of covenant. And that is the beauty of understanding purity and purification in the realm of God's holiness, which is going to burn away the bad things.

[00:54:52] And so we are still judged. The things that we do that withstand that purifying fire will be everlasting. The things that we do that do not survive that purifying fire, well, those are not gonna be everlasting things.

[00:55:11] I hope that this helps you kind of frame all of this, the glory, the purification fire, the idea of presence and the idea of transformation. All of that is wrapped up in this beautiful story.

[00:55:26] I mean, isn't it amazing that we have something that was written so long before the New Testament, and it goes into the New Testament, and it continues into our world today in a very real application kind of a way. It doesn't contradict itself. And it's really not changing. It's just advancing God's purposes in the world.

[00:55:50] Again, it's not a work in, work out kind of a situation. It is much more complex than that, but I think the story does a really good job in showing the reality of it, and it shows up in history. It's a historical thing. It's not made up. But what's going on fits within the narrative of Scripture because this is the story of God. This is our story.

[00:56:17] And our hope is yes in the future for resurrection and eternal life. But it's not just that. Because if we are in Christ, then that means we are actively commissioned to do things here on earth. I've said this many times, this is why I love the topic of the image of God, because it speaks into what you are actively doing.

[00:56:42] Even on our hardest moments, even in those days where we're stressed, where we're struggling. Where we don't understand why we're going through the things that we're going through, these frames, these narratives, these stories, all speak into that and give us hope, and give us purpose, and give us intention and show that all of that has to do with the glory of God, his purposes in creation and our role in that. And it's an active role.

[00:57:17] It's kind of a scary role because we are definitely judged. Second Corinthians five 10 says, quote," For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ in order that each one may receive back the things through the body according to what he has done, whether good or bad." End quote.

[00:57:39] One Peter four, 17 through 19 says, quote " For it is the time for the judgment to begin out from the household of God. But if it begins out from us first, what will be the outcome for those who are disobedient to the gospel of God? And if the righteous are saved with difficulty, what will become of the ungodly and the sinner? So then also those who suffer according to the will of God must entrust their souls to a faithful creator in doing good." End quote.

[00:58:12] Now, I know there's a lot of people out there who really struggle with the idea of repentance and whether or not we're doing enough. Again, it's not about our merit. It's not about merit at all. It is about having that approach to God with the right posture, and it's not gonna be a perfect posture.

[00:58:36] But there's definitely a difference between approaching God in reverance and humility and with the desire and understanding that you are going to be purified in that approach versus an approach of arrogance and, I just want something out of you, God. I just want the reward. I just want blessings.

[00:59:00] I don't think it's bad to want blessings. We should seek after those things after all. But note that the suffering is going to come along with it. And I think that that is part of the core of this message. The suffering is going to purify you one way or another. The fire is going to purify you one way or another. So if you're approaching God and you're not approaching God perfectly right, which lets all admit that that's just going to be all of us, it's okay. We just have to realize that that purification will happen.

[00:59:41] Joel two 12 through 13 says, quote, " and even now, declares Yahweh, return to me with all your heart, with fasting and weeping and wailing. Rend your hearts and not your garments, and return to Yahweh, your God, because he is gracious and compassionate, slow to anger and great in loyal love and relenting from harm." End quote.

[01:00:08] Romans eight verse one tells us there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, but we can see in the whole scope of Scripture that judgment and evaluation still happens. There is no condemnation for the person but our works and our attitudes and our feelings and everything else that is not going to be fit for the presence of God, those things will be purified and burned away, and sometimes it's a painful process.

[01:00:40] That doesn't mean that all of your suffering has to do with something that you've done wrong, okay? That's also not the way we should be looking at this. Because clearly also in the New Testament, we have many places where people are suffering un righteously. And why is that? Because Christ also suffered un righteously.

[01:01:02] So following Jesus, being in Christ, doesn't guarantee a perfect life. It doesn't guarantee that even we are perfect in our approach to him, but we will be united to him through the purifying force of the Spirit, through the purifying sufferings that we have.

[01:01:22] And what will come out at the end is going to be refined. It's a scary process. It's a difficult process. Obviously. It's the whole word of suffering there, but it's a worthy process. It's a good process. It is something that will guarantee us to be in God's presence in the end.

[01:01:43] Now, what does all of this have to do with baptism? Well, it's pretty clear once we read Matthew three 11 through 12, I baptize you with water for repentance. But the one who comes after me is more powerful than I am, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. His winnowing shovel is in his hand and he will clean out his threshing floor and will gather his wheat into the storehouse. But he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire." End quote.

[01:02:18] I think a lot of us read that as different people, right? And I don't wanna say that it doesn't have that in mind that some will be saved and some will not. But we can see through the theme of fire looking at it very carefully through all of Scripture from the Old Testament into the New Testament, it's not just the wicked people who are burned. It is people who are faithful to God, but the righteous in the fire will not be themselves consumed. It's just the things that are not fit for presence that will be consumed.

[01:02:57] Baptism places us into Christ, into the one who dwells in the fire and is the presence himself. And so we're not consumed, we are conformed, and that is a painful process sometimes.

[01:03:12] All right. First Peter three is obviously a very important divine council text that is related to baptism and it's related to the flood narrative. And I think it's interesting that it doesn't directly have anything to do with fire in this passage. It doesn't because it's referencing back into the flood. But the flood and fire are very connected in Scripture as well.

[01:03:38] First Peter 3 21 tells us that baptism saves us not as the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

[01:03:51] I mean, I don't even know what more to say about this passage that hasn't already been brought out. We'll probably touch on it again in a future episode, but I hope you can see how all of these things are really combined into a single narrative. Even when we don't have the direct idea of fire, because fire is a metaphor, and that doesn't mean not true. It just means that it's a broad picture and it can encompass things that are not obviously or literally fire.

[01:04:28] All right. I think it's about time to end for this episode. But I hope that this has been really helpful and I hope that because we are a baptized spirit-filled people, that we welcome the evaluating fire as a kind of grace, even if it's not always pleasant and even if we don't always understand it. Sometimes the purification we go through is because we are just sinful and we really have done something wrong that needs correction.

[01:05:01] Sometimes the suffering and the fire is because of not something we've done, but something other people do, and other people are the cause of that. But it is according to God's grace and his own judgment and his own timing that all of that will ultimately be reconciled in Christ.

[01:05:23] I will go ahead and end on Isaiah 43, verse two through three, which says, " When you pass through the waters, I will be with you and through the rivers, they shall not flow over you. When you walk through fire, you shall not be burned and the flame shall not scorch you. For I am Yahweh, your God, the holy one of Israel, your Savior. I give you Egypt as a ransom, kush and siba in place of you." End quote.

[01:05:55] I hope that is helpful and a hopeful idea for us. I don't know about you, but it's not really very fun to suffer. It is not very fun to go through difficult times and things that we're not really sure why we have to go through them. And none of this is meant to be a cookie cutter answer to any of that. And I hope that's really obvious because the fact that we have so many different frames means that we can't always know what frame we're in.

[01:06:30] But please keep up the hope of pursuing Christ and repenting, for the kingdom of Heaven is at hand.

[01:06:39] At any rate, I will end here for today. Thank you guys as always for listening to the episodes, for sharing them with others and for any of the other ways that you support me, including in financial ways. Thank you, thank you, thank you to all of you who do that. I will invite you all also over to my biblical theology community at On This Rock. I will leave the link to that in the show notes. Come January, 2026, we're gonna be doing a deep dive into the book Lamb of the Free. So come and check that out if you are interested at all in that. But I will leave that there for this week. I wish you all a blessed week and we will see you later.